Richard, do you check to see if it’s been shaken when you open a carbonated drink? Asking me about listservs, incl. flteach, results in a fizzy explosion. Let me begin………….
You may know that I’ve spent 16 years on flteach and the moderators pointed out that I had posted more than any other member (membership runs at between 5 and 6 thousand, I believe). So no one can say I haven’t contributed. While I get nasty comments some times, most of the time people say they like what I write even if they don’t always agree. Fair enough.
However, recently I asked a simple question: “And so learning science is like learning a fl?”
This was in response to a statement:
“Certainly learning FL vocabulary is _exactly_ like learning the vocabulary of
science. Using either correctly and intelligently is another story altogether.
Too often we seem to forget that there are similarities with other disciplines
which we should leverage. Early acquisition of vocabulary is simple
memorization, nothing more. Expression, insight, connections–those come
later and involve distinct processes.
>
>Frankly, I find that I am tired of the assumption that we language teachers
seem to make all too often that what we do is so entirely different than what
our colleagues in other disciplines do. Vocabulary is the basis of virtually every
discipline. If we don’t have the words, we can’t discuss squat. Memorize the
vocabulary, and then practice its use. But it all starts with the memorization of
vocabulary.
>
>As I said, I knew the howls of indignation would begin, and I am not at all
surprised to see from whence the first volley comes. I will not respond any
further.
>
Immediately a post came from someone else:
“What
has always provoked me with off-the-cuff remarks such as:
“And so learning science is like learning a fl?”
….is that such a remark gives the appearance of using a type of Socratic
method to analyze a problem to further a discussion, but without the “I know
that I know nothing” attitude of Socrates. Unfortunately, the Socrateasers of
today normally come off with such remarks as implying that anyone who has
an opposing view needs remediation and needs to get with the program. In
other words, “I know that YOU know nothing.” This, then, quickly turns into a
power struggle rather than a discussion, and thus, IMO, a bit of a waste of
time”
Since the question was entirely legitimate and clearly legitimate, the sophistry in this response made me realize that indeed responding to such people is a waste of time. Unfortunately, if you let it go and ask your question again, you look like you are ignoring the post out of an inability to deal with the criticism or out of arrogance.
One or two people responded to the List regarding this but one was Wes, so he doesn’t count 🙂 and one other person I see as neutral. Other than that, not only did the List remain silent but one moderator even joined in with the Socrates b.s. I love the way these people cloak themselves with Greek trivia, citing Aristotle and Socrates as if they are in their league. What crap!
I realized how much study and reading I want to do and how much material for this blog I have. No one has noticed my absence. When I attend ACTFL in November, I’ll put on the red dot and show up for the photo shoot as usual and be quite friendly, but if someone asks about my lack of contributions, I’ll direct them to this comment.
How do we account for the lack of response (except for one from the original poster:
“On Apr 25, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Pat Barrett wrote:
>
>> And so learning science is like learning a fl?
>
>
>Certainly learning FL vocabulary is _exactly_ like learning the vocabulary of
science. Using either correctly and intelligently is another story altogether.
Too often we seem to forget that there are similarities with other disciplines
which we should leverage. Early acquisition of vocabulary is simple
memorization, nothing more. Expression, insight, connections–those come
later and involve distinct processes.
>
>Frankly, I find that I am tired of the assumption that we language teachers
seem to make all too often that what we do is so entirely different than what
our colleagues in other disciplines do. Vocabulary is the basis of virtually every
discipline. If we don’t have the words, we can’t discuss squat. Memorize the
vocabulary, and then practice its use. But it all starts with the memorization of
vocabulary.
>
>As I said, I knew the howls of indignation would begin, and I am not at all
surprised to see from whence the first volley comes. I will not respond any
further.”
The sad thing is, the man had a reasonable point: that fl learning is in many ways like learning other disciplines, with particular reference to vocabulary. The poster has put up good posts before but has also trashed people. It’s a personality issue.
And that last is exactly why I have left both flteach and moretprs as a contributor (I am still a member and read the posts and sometimes respond individually to posts). Some people have personal agendas and bring them into the discussions. I think that is unavoidable to some degree. But we should be able to discuss it, whereas these two people want to label me anything I write as suspect. Screw them.
The moderator himself chimed in with:
“Socratic method… Hmmm… Last month I listened to Michel Onfray’s course
from the Université Populaire de Caen on Greek philosophy “L’Archipel
pré-chrétien” (“de Leucippe à Épicure” and “d’Épicure à Diogène D’Oenanda”).
His read on Plato’s Socrates from the point of view of a counter-history of
philosophy (exploring those who have generally been excluded by the main
stream) is that the socratic dialogs always end up being an interaction
between “wonderful, brilliant, humble, likable” Socrates and an idiot straw
man who can’t seem to say much about his position other than “Yes Socrates,”
No, Socrates,” “You’re right, Socrates.” Plato’s goal is to denigrate the
ideas of the so-called “pre-socratics” (who were actually Socrates’
contemporaries), not to honestly present their ideas as they would have done
and then compare them to his own. After all, Plato is perfectly willing to
burn any book he disagrees with, so why would he argue with anyone but a
straw man.”
My read of that is he supports the two people who saw my question as phony. But here’s the thing, Richard: I’ve been on that List 16 years and yet I’m not given the courtesy of being asked if my question was sincere. They know I have explained acquisition till the cows come home and they don’t like it and so they denigrate my request that they clarify their position that “Certainly learning FL vocabulary is _exactly_ like learning the vocabulary of
science.”
This is not a controversial statement? Of course it is and I was asking for further discussion.
Now, (I said you opened a well-shaken can of pop) our dear departed friend, a true stalwart of flteach, once wrote me (and I’ve saved all these posts, Richard, so no one can deny these; I’ll just forward the posts to them) that most members of flteach just want to vent and to get an idea for what to do on Monday. She had expressed many times her appreciation of fl teachers, esp those on flteach, so I think she was just thinking of some of the dumber things people have posted about.
However, we do need to look at teacher culture in general and fl teacher culture in particular to get an understanding of why an attack like that on my sincerity, in light of my long participation on the listserv, elicited so little support from the “community”. And it has to do with teachers’ general antipathy to what they call confrontation and criticism. It is an unwritten code of the teaching staff that we don’t confront and we don’t criticize. So many private posts I’ve received telling me how they agree with what I say but they don’t like to get flamed. People like David Stillman and Marilyn Barrueta, two master teachers with huge knowledge of their fields, intimidated these people. You can still go to moretprs and find flteach survivors who say “never again”.
That sensitivity to criticism and dislike of confrontation tell the tale; whether they disagreed or agreed with the posts I’ve quoted, they just didn’t want to get involved.
So count on me reading more blogs and posting to my own. I’ve got tons of material.
Thanks for asking (if you’ve got this far).